Wednesday, May 09, 2007
blogging
I've been in the process of moving for the past couple of days, and I don't have easy internet access at home anymore, then I'm going to Mexico next week, then when I get back I'm going to try and figure out the internet situation. So, basically, expect the blogging to be light.
Thursday, May 03, 2007
Favorite Hymns Meme
(kind of tagged by http://christusvincit.blogspot.com/)
Favorite five Latin hymns:
(what qualifies as a hymn? Like hymn format as in with verses? Or can a one line chant count? I guess it doesn't matter, so I will clarify "hymns" as "songs")
1. Ave Maria -chant, Mode I
2. Pange Lingua
3. Adoro Te Devote
4. Puer Natus
5. Vidi Aquam
Favorite five English hymns:
1. O Sacred Head (Passion Chorale)
2. Beautiful Saviour (St. Elizabeth or Schoenlzster Jesu or something like that?)
3. O Breathe on Me O Breath of God (St. Columba)
4. Jesus My Lord, My God, My All
5. When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
ok, I know I'm forgetting some, but oh well.
Favorite five Latin hymns:
(what qualifies as a hymn? Like hymn format as in with verses? Or can a one line chant count? I guess it doesn't matter, so I will clarify "hymns" as "songs")
1. Ave Maria -chant, Mode I
2. Pange Lingua
3. Adoro Te Devote
4. Puer Natus
5. Vidi Aquam
Favorite five English hymns:
1. O Sacred Head (Passion Chorale)
2. Beautiful Saviour (St. Elizabeth or Schoenlzster Jesu or something like that?)
3. O Breathe on Me O Breath of God (St. Columba)
4. Jesus My Lord, My God, My All
5. When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
ok, I know I'm forgetting some, but oh well.
Wednesday, May 02, 2007
I'm starting to understand why there are so few good Communion songs
there's several things going on here.
Catholics didn't write much of their own music (especially in the vernacular) until post-1962.
I'm not sure at what point hymns in the vernacular were used, but they were certainly almost all Protestant.
hence, not any about the Eucharist. ("Alleluia Sing to Jesus" and "At that First Eucharist" are the only actual hymns I can think of that are Eucharist oriented that were written more than 40 years ago! Or at least the only ones in Ritual Song...) So all of the other "songs" in the hymnal have been written since then, and are either shallow in theological content if not heretical, and usually musically deficient. Which seems to be the general trend for the 40 years following Vatican II.
Further back then that, however, we have all of the Latin Gregorian chant. Think "Pange Lingua," or "Adoro te Devote."
Of course there are the English translations of those, but really, that doesn't leave me with many options.
well, even if that doesn't solve my irritations about why there are so few good communion songs, at least I understand why a little bit more. Now I don't have to keep wondering, "why are there no Eucharistic HYMNS!?"
there's a couple...(they're also mostly just not in my hymnal! grr!)
Catholics didn't write much of their own music (especially in the vernacular) until post-1962.
I'm not sure at what point hymns in the vernacular were used, but they were certainly almost all Protestant.
hence, not any about the Eucharist. ("Alleluia Sing to Jesus" and "At that First Eucharist" are the only actual hymns I can think of that are Eucharist oriented that were written more than 40 years ago! Or at least the only ones in Ritual Song...) So all of the other "songs" in the hymnal have been written since then, and are either shallow in theological content if not heretical, and usually musically deficient. Which seems to be the general trend for the 40 years following Vatican II.
Further back then that, however, we have all of the Latin Gregorian chant. Think "Pange Lingua," or "Adoro te Devote."
Of course there are the English translations of those, but really, that doesn't leave me with many options.
well, even if that doesn't solve my irritations about why there are so few good communion songs, at least I understand why a little bit more. Now I don't have to keep wondering, "why are there no Eucharistic HYMNS!?"
there's a couple...(they're also mostly just not in my hymnal! grr!)
Tuesday, May 01, 2007
Easter 5 C
Good Christians all (Gelobt Sei Gott)
Vidi Aquam
Gloria (Lee)
"This is the Day the Lord Has Made" (Common for Easter) R. Holtz
R&A Alleluia
Crowning: Bring Flowers of the Rarest
Offertory: Where Charity and Love Prevail
Communion: We Have Been Told (one of the verses is actually the commuion antiphon! Yay! I really intend to try to do this more often!)
Immaculate Mary
Sing With All the Saints** (Hymn to Joy)
**Sometimes I hate it when they change the old hymns to be "gender inclusive." Usually they just make less sense then. But in this particular case...I can't figure out WHO are the "sons in glory," but I KNOW who the "Saints in glory" are!
Vidi Aquam
Gloria (Lee)
"This is the Day the Lord Has Made" (Common for Easter) R. Holtz
R&A Alleluia
Crowning: Bring Flowers of the Rarest
Offertory: Where Charity and Love Prevail
Communion: We Have Been Told (one of the verses is actually the commuion antiphon! Yay! I really intend to try to do this more often!)
Immaculate Mary
Sing With All the Saints** (Hymn to Joy)
**Sometimes I hate it when they change the old hymns to be "gender inclusive." Usually they just make less sense then. But in this particular case...I can't figure out WHO are the "sons in glory," but I KNOW who the "Saints in glory" are!
Monday, April 30, 2007
Bring Flowers of the Rarest
I had to laugh when Gavin mentioned "Bring Flowers of the Rarest" in a recent thread on another site.
So here I am, at my wonderful little church, where the divide between "traditionalists" and "progressives" is as strong as anywhere.
And I have some idea where most of the notable people in the church (or at least those I've met-issues like these don't stay hidden once people meet you and find out you're the MD!)
So when the wonderful lady who helps out around the church doing miscellanious liturgically related stuff handed me a copy of the song she was thinking would be used at all the Masses next weekend for the May crowning and was sure everyone knew, I looked at it and said, "ok, I've never heard of it, but I'll poll the choir."
The song is "Bring Flowers of the Rarest."
So I plunked it out on my piano as soon as I got home, and saw right away that it was some late 19th century___ (fill in the blank.)
I played it for the choir, and about half of them (surprise suprise-those new to the parish!) started singing along. ok, so I guess I will type it out on sibelius, (lower it a minor third!) so the congregation can sing it it with only one voice part so it will fit on one page.
but really...
was this schmaltz from the turn of the century "Catholic Music," in the same way that Haugen/Haas is for us now?
that now it is a nostalgic classic for all of the "traditionalists?" hm...
So here I am, at my wonderful little church, where the divide between "traditionalists" and "progressives" is as strong as anywhere.
And I have some idea where most of the notable people in the church (or at least those I've met-issues like these don't stay hidden once people meet you and find out you're the MD!)
So when the wonderful lady who helps out around the church doing miscellanious liturgically related stuff handed me a copy of the song she was thinking would be used at all the Masses next weekend for the May crowning and was sure everyone knew, I looked at it and said, "ok, I've never heard of it, but I'll poll the choir."
The song is "Bring Flowers of the Rarest."
So I plunked it out on my piano as soon as I got home, and saw right away that it was some late 19th century___ (fill in the blank.)
I played it for the choir, and about half of them (surprise suprise-those new to the parish!) started singing along. ok, so I guess I will type it out on sibelius, (lower it a minor third!) so the congregation can sing it it with only one voice part so it will fit on one page.
but really...
was this schmaltz from the turn of the century "Catholic Music," in the same way that Haugen/Haas is for us now?
that now it is a nostalgic classic for all of the "traditionalists?" hm...
Thursday, April 26, 2007
Wednesday, April 25, 2007
oh, and p.s.
I LOVE free harmonizations of hymns!
(you would too, especially if your organ only had 3 ranks, and your choir only about 10 people...)
(you would too, especially if your organ only had 3 ranks, and your choir only about 10 people...)
a little off topic...
I am graduating in two days.
18 years of school (assuming I started when I was 4) finally...DONE!
graduating from a conservatory-class music school, and from a world-wide recognized university.
not bad, I'd say.
especially for a kid who had no idea what she wanted to be when she grew up, when she started college.
I guess she's gonna be a church organist/pastoral musician/music director. whatever.
and affect more lives than your average lawyer/engineer/voice major whatever.
really, I've said this before, and it might even be hidden somewhere on my profile, but ALL I want to do is to play the organ and sing and direct my choir so that other people are drawn closer to Christ. It's really quite simple.
18 years of school (assuming I started when I was 4) finally...DONE!
graduating from a conservatory-class music school, and from a world-wide recognized university.
not bad, I'd say.
especially for a kid who had no idea what she wanted to be when she grew up, when she started college.
I guess she's gonna be a church organist/pastoral musician/music director. whatever.
and affect more lives than your average lawyer/engineer/voice major whatever.
really, I've said this before, and it might even be hidden somewhere on my profile, but ALL I want to do is to play the organ and sing and direct my choir so that other people are drawn closer to Christ. It's really quite simple.
Sunday, April 22, 2007
Latin in the Mass
this is borrowed from Fr. Fox (http://frmartinfox.blogspot.com/)
I think I'll see what I can do about particularly getting it into the hands of my choir members and other such people who might find it useful. keeping in mind however, that there are probably people who will refuse to accept this, whether I can "prove" it comes from the Church or not.
Latin and Chant at Mass: What Vatican II said:
From the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, promulgated by Pope Paul VI, December 4, 1963:
36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.(1)
2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may(2) be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters. (3)
3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language. (4)
54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
Nevertheless steps should be taken (5) so that the faithful may also (6) be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. (7)
116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant (8) as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30. (9)
What Pope Paul VI said in Jubilate Deo, a booklet of chant issued by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, April 14, 1974: (10)
This minimum repertoire (11) of Gregorian chant has been prepared with that purpose in mind: to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living traditions of the past.
Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing (12) cannot refuse to Gregorian chant the place which is due to it….
In presenting the Holy Father's gift to you, may I at the same time remind you of the desire which he has often expressed that the Conciliar constitution on the liturgy (13) be increasingly better implemented. Would you therefore…decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of "Jubilate Deo" and of having them sing them…
What Pope Benedict said, in Sacramentum Caritatis, March 13, 2007:
42. In the ars celebrandi, (14) liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that "the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love." The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. (15) Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration. Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons. Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy. (16)
62. ….Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (17)
____
Notes:
1 "The Latin Rite" means the Roman Catholic Church, i.e., not the Greek, Lebanese, or other branches.
2 Emphasis added, and so throughout.
3 Note it never mandates that the vernacular must be used, but rather that it may be used.
4 This language does not envision a complete elimination of Latin usage at Mass.
5 Who should take these steps? Clearly bishops, and those who act for them, pastors. What steps? Not specified, but some steps are envisioned.
6 The faithful also—i.e., not just priests, not just choirs.
7 "Parts of the Ordinary" refers to prayers said every week.
8 Gregorian chant, by definition, is in Latin.
9 This makes clear the music needn’t be all Gregorian chant, only that it have "pride of place."
10 Although what follows was issued by the Congregation, it clearly represents the pope’s own desires.
11 Note the wording: the pope intends a "minimum" understanding and usage of Latin, Gregorian chant.
12 Note: this is for congregations, not just the priest, or for choirs.
13 I.e., this is linked to what Vatican II said about Gregorian chant, and tells us the pope’s understanding of its meaning.
14 I.e., the art of celebrating the liturgy.
15 Note how this echoes what Pope Paul VI said in Jubilate Deo, quoted above.
16 The pope is referring to the Synod of bishops, held October, 2005; his request to use Gregorian chant reflects their recommendation as well.
17 The first part of this paragraph (not quoted) refers primarily to international celebrations of the Mass, at which the pope requests and encourages the use of Latin; this part goes further, and speaks to more ordinary settings. I.e., the use of Latin and chant are not only for international gatherings, but as Paul VI made clear, parish settings.
I think I'll see what I can do about particularly getting it into the hands of my choir members and other such people who might find it useful. keeping in mind however, that there are probably people who will refuse to accept this, whether I can "prove" it comes from the Church or not.
Latin and Chant at Mass: What Vatican II said:
From the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, promulgated by Pope Paul VI, December 4, 1963:
36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.(1)
2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may(2) be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters. (3)
3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language. (4)
54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
Nevertheless steps should be taken (5) so that the faithful may also (6) be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. (7)
116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant (8) as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30. (9)
What Pope Paul VI said in Jubilate Deo, a booklet of chant issued by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, April 14, 1974: (10)
This minimum repertoire (11) of Gregorian chant has been prepared with that purpose in mind: to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living traditions of the past.
Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing (12) cannot refuse to Gregorian chant the place which is due to it….
In presenting the Holy Father's gift to you, may I at the same time remind you of the desire which he has often expressed that the Conciliar constitution on the liturgy (13) be increasingly better implemented. Would you therefore…decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of "Jubilate Deo" and of having them sing them…
What Pope Benedict said, in Sacramentum Caritatis, March 13, 2007:
42. In the ars celebrandi, (14) liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that "the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love." The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. (15) Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration. Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons. Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy. (16)
62. ….Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (17)
____
Notes:
1 "The Latin Rite" means the Roman Catholic Church, i.e., not the Greek, Lebanese, or other branches.
2 Emphasis added, and so throughout.
3 Note it never mandates that the vernacular must be used, but rather that it may be used.
4 This language does not envision a complete elimination of Latin usage at Mass.
5 Who should take these steps? Clearly bishops, and those who act for them, pastors. What steps? Not specified, but some steps are envisioned.
6 The faithful also—i.e., not just priests, not just choirs.
7 "Parts of the Ordinary" refers to prayers said every week.
8 Gregorian chant, by definition, is in Latin.
9 This makes clear the music needn’t be all Gregorian chant, only that it have "pride of place."
10 Although what follows was issued by the Congregation, it clearly represents the pope’s own desires.
11 Note the wording: the pope intends a "minimum" understanding and usage of Latin, Gregorian chant.
12 Note: this is for congregations, not just the priest, or for choirs.
13 I.e., this is linked to what Vatican II said about Gregorian chant, and tells us the pope’s understanding of its meaning.
14 I.e., the art of celebrating the liturgy.
15 Note how this echoes what Pope Paul VI said in Jubilate Deo, quoted above.
16 The pope is referring to the Synod of bishops, held October, 2005; his request to use Gregorian chant reflects their recommendation as well.
17 The first part of this paragraph (not quoted) refers primarily to international celebrations of the Mass, at which the pope requests and encourages the use of Latin; this part goes further, and speaks to more ordinary settings. I.e., the use of Latin and chant are not only for international gatherings, but as Paul VI made clear, parish settings.
Saturday, April 21, 2007
Saturday night ramblings
so I spent all week being terrified about how to introduce the Latin memorial acclamation, especially after (as I blogged about before) the worship committee meeting on Monday, and my realization that there are people in the Church with good hearts, but who really don't understand why we are re-introducing Latin and chant and such, and I certainly didn't feel equipped to explain it to them,
also,
after choir on Thursday night, I realized that even the choir had a relatively difficult time learning these two lines of latin chant, and there was even some, um, criticism which I didn't really know how to respond to.
so this afternoon before Mass I was able to talk to Father and express to him my concerns, and (this is one of the things that I LOVE about him) he is able to read between my inarticulate expressing about what I'm worried.
so he stood up with me before Mass and helped explain a little about why we were doing this...
I know it sounds almost unecessary, but you have to understand how much of an UNpastoral personality I have. I would have just gotten up there and been like, "yeah...so we're gonna learn this thing..."
but he explained it so well! Like, I know why we are doing this, I just can't usually articulate it!
It will be interesting to see how it goes over tomorrow and in the future...
next is the Sanctus, then the Gloria! so this is an experiment to see how long it really takes the congregation to pick up...
(the Gloria is SO long! where do you even BEGIN teaching that to a congregation in the 5 minutes before Mass? I'm still deciding between Gloria VII (de Angelis)-according to the Liber Cantualis- and XV. XV is definitely easier, but really pretty boring sounding, but VII is kind of hard for a congregation to learn from what I've heard, even though it is the one that "every Catholic is supposed to know." [btw-my priest says that often {that one of the popes wrote that about the Jubilate Deo Mass-which in some books this particular Gloria is called, but I can't figure out when they're given the name as opposed to number} my priest says that what I am here calling Gloria VII is the one that some pope said we are all supposed to know. ] does anyone actually know where that is written/documented?)
also,
after choir on Thursday night, I realized that even the choir had a relatively difficult time learning these two lines of latin chant, and there was even some, um, criticism which I didn't really know how to respond to.
so this afternoon before Mass I was able to talk to Father and express to him my concerns, and (this is one of the things that I LOVE about him) he is able to read between my inarticulate expressing about what I'm worried.
so he stood up with me before Mass and helped explain a little about why we were doing this...
I know it sounds almost unecessary, but you have to understand how much of an UNpastoral personality I have. I would have just gotten up there and been like, "yeah...so we're gonna learn this thing..."
but he explained it so well! Like, I know why we are doing this, I just can't usually articulate it!
It will be interesting to see how it goes over tomorrow and in the future...
next is the Sanctus, then the Gloria! so this is an experiment to see how long it really takes the congregation to pick up...
(the Gloria is SO long! where do you even BEGIN teaching that to a congregation in the 5 minutes before Mass? I'm still deciding between Gloria VII (de Angelis)-according to the Liber Cantualis- and XV. XV is definitely easier, but really pretty boring sounding, but VII is kind of hard for a congregation to learn from what I've heard, even though it is the one that "every Catholic is supposed to know." [btw-my priest says that often {that one of the popes wrote that about the Jubilate Deo Mass-which in some books this particular Gloria is called, but I can't figure out when they're given the name as opposed to number} my priest says that what I am here calling Gloria VII is the one that some pope said we are all supposed to know. ] does anyone actually know where that is written/documented?)
Tuesday, April 17, 2007
more on the new translation
http://fumare.blogspot.com/2007/04/next-great-threshold-of-liturgical.html
ok, half the reason I'm posting this link is because otherwise I won't be able to find it again, and also I think I might like to show it to my roommate whom I blogged about a couple entries before, but really, I just think she doesn't care, so why bother? I wonder if most people just don't care? As in, "meh, I hate learning new things..." but they otherwise wouldn't even care about the (excellent!) issues and points brought out in the above-mentioned blog?
ok, half the reason I'm posting this link is because otherwise I won't be able to find it again, and also I think I might like to show it to my roommate whom I blogged about a couple entries before, but really, I just think she doesn't care, so why bother? I wonder if most people just don't care? As in, "meh, I hate learning new things..." but they otherwise wouldn't even care about the (excellent!) issues and points brought out in the above-mentioned blog?
you'lll never change anyone's mind if you neglect CHARITY
I went to my first "Worship Committee meeting" last night. It was...interesting.
It's good for me to go, so I'm informed about things I otherwise would be completely clueless about (there's a separate First Communion Mass?) but it really emphasized some things I've been observing recently that, well, make me angry.
These well-intentioned people who are SO convinced that they are 100 percent right, and that anyone who disagrees with what they know that the Church teaches is just an awful, silly, uneducated or stubborn person who needs to be set right and straightened out IMMEDIATELY.
and it makes me really angry that they just COMPLETELY forget about *charity.*
at the meeting, there were about 4 men and 4 women, all except one would consider ourselves "completely loyal the Church's teachings," but at least the other man has a good heart and really does want to do what's right-as in CHARITABLE. (contrast those who look down for example, on the Our-Father-hand-holders with those who do it because isn't it rude to not take someone's hand when the offer it, or even-oh goodness no-those who do it because it shows that we are unified? but I digress...just trying to give a little sense of the difference between the people at the meeting.)
Anyhow, the meeting was frustrating because the MEN kept on going off on all of these crazy tangents about all sorts of somewhat relevant but actually things that won't happen for a long time, or just that the worship committee won't really have anything to do with, and then they kept on ARGUING! And all of us women were rolling our eyes...
but what made me the most angry is how the other men would react when the guy who has somewhat different opinions would disagree. seriously people, it's 7 against 1, and I'm sure he realizes it. Can he PLEASE finish what he's saying? and then not have 3 people jump on him with explanations that are filled with implications of "If you just read the (hundreds of pages long) Church documents...Oh you're so naiive, you just don't know what the Church teaches..." Basically, just the general assumption that everyone agrees with you.
really, you're not going to change anyone's mind if you don't meet them where they're at.
ok, this post is making less sense the more I write. Maybe the situation itself wasn't so bad, and I know that men aren't as sensitive as women, and so I'm sure that this guy wasn't nearly as upset at arguing with 3 people at the same time as I would be!
Father wasn't at the meeting, and I'm just curious if it would have gone differently.
One guy (I mean, I like this guy, I'm not lambasting him, I'm just making an example of an attitude that he has which I do NOT think is helpful for unity within the Church, and for furthering the explanation of the Reform of the Reform!) this guy kept saying (kind of jokingly) that he wanted to reinstitute the Inquisition, and how he wanted to be Pope cuz he'd just "take care of" all the dissenters and such... (I reassured him that that was probably why he was never going to become pope...)
I mean, I don't want to give the impression that the meeting was all horrible and intense, it really wasn't that bad, mostly just annoying cuz it took almost two hours cuz we kept getting sidetracked about silly things like when we were going to put the communion rail back up and remove the free altar, and introduce more Latin. (I kept my mouth shut during that one, not wanting to bring up the fact that, well, um, actually THIS weekend we will be learning the "Mortem tuam annunciamus...")
It's good for me to go, so I'm informed about things I otherwise would be completely clueless about (there's a separate First Communion Mass?) but it really emphasized some things I've been observing recently that, well, make me angry.
These well-intentioned people who are SO convinced that they are 100 percent right, and that anyone who disagrees with what they know that the Church teaches is just an awful, silly, uneducated or stubborn person who needs to be set right and straightened out IMMEDIATELY.
and it makes me really angry that they just COMPLETELY forget about *charity.*
at the meeting, there were about 4 men and 4 women, all except one would consider ourselves "completely loyal the Church's teachings," but at least the other man has a good heart and really does want to do what's right-as in CHARITABLE. (contrast those who look down for example, on the Our-Father-hand-holders with those who do it because isn't it rude to not take someone's hand when the offer it, or even-oh goodness no-those who do it because it shows that we are unified? but I digress...just trying to give a little sense of the difference between the people at the meeting.)
Anyhow, the meeting was frustrating because the MEN kept on going off on all of these crazy tangents about all sorts of somewhat relevant but actually things that won't happen for a long time, or just that the worship committee won't really have anything to do with, and then they kept on ARGUING! And all of us women were rolling our eyes...
but what made me the most angry is how the other men would react when the guy who has somewhat different opinions would disagree. seriously people, it's 7 against 1, and I'm sure he realizes it. Can he PLEASE finish what he's saying? and then not have 3 people jump on him with explanations that are filled with implications of "If you just read the (hundreds of pages long) Church documents...Oh you're so naiive, you just don't know what the Church teaches..." Basically, just the general assumption that everyone agrees with you.
really, you're not going to change anyone's mind if you don't meet them where they're at.
ok, this post is making less sense the more I write. Maybe the situation itself wasn't so bad, and I know that men aren't as sensitive as women, and so I'm sure that this guy wasn't nearly as upset at arguing with 3 people at the same time as I would be!
Father wasn't at the meeting, and I'm just curious if it would have gone differently.
One guy (I mean, I like this guy, I'm not lambasting him, I'm just making an example of an attitude that he has which I do NOT think is helpful for unity within the Church, and for furthering the explanation of the Reform of the Reform!) this guy kept saying (kind of jokingly) that he wanted to reinstitute the Inquisition, and how he wanted to be Pope cuz he'd just "take care of" all the dissenters and such... (I reassured him that that was probably why he was never going to become pope...)
I mean, I don't want to give the impression that the meeting was all horrible and intense, it really wasn't that bad, mostly just annoying cuz it took almost two hours cuz we kept getting sidetracked about silly things like when we were going to put the communion rail back up and remove the free altar, and introduce more Latin. (I kept my mouth shut during that one, not wanting to bring up the fact that, well, um, actually THIS weekend we will be learning the "Mortem tuam annunciamus...")
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